Transcript of News X panel discussion of 22 February

Transcript submitted by a reader:

NewsX: 0:00
We continue this discussion with Gilbert Doctorow, Russian affairs expert located in Brussels; and also Keith Vaz, Chairman, Integration Foundation, located in London. I wanted to talk to you, Keith Vaz, about the European inclusion in peace talks. Zelensky has called for more European effort in ending this war. What's your views? Is Europe doing enough?
0:30

Keith Vaz: 0:34
[beginning was cut] ...to make sure that this happens. Remember it's always been a joint venture. It's always been the United States and the European Union and Britain, because we're outside, working together in order to support Zelensky. What's been very interesting is what's been coming out of London. People like Boris Johnson, who one would think would be quite close to Trump and the Republican Party, coming out saying, "Zelensky is not a dictator, we need to support it, Trump is only saying this in order to get attention for this particular issue, and now we can move on."

It was always going to work. You cannot have a discussion about Ukraine without Ukraine. Of course, Trump likes to deal on a much higher level and probably doesn't rate Zelensky in terms of being a world leader. He wants to deal with Putin. His big photo call is definitely going to be handshaking with Putin in Riyadh or somewhere else like that.

1:35
That's what he really wants. He is a news grabber, a headline grabber. So he had to include Zelensky, because this week both Kier Starmer and Emmanuel Macron are visiting the United States. They are both going to tell him that unless we work together, we are not going to achieve a long-lasting peace in the area. And that is why he simply cannot ignore Ukraine. Remember what he promised. He said "on day one of my election as president", he was going to end the war in Ukraine. 30 days have now gone. Nothing really substantial has happened, so he needs to get going.

2:20
Zelensky has got to be included. The European Union has got to be included. You're not going to get a peace unless all these people are involved. The UN resolution, by the way, is neither here nor there. As we all know, most UN resolutions are ignored. But it's a kind of music thing more than anything else. At least they're talking about the UN, which is good news as far as the world is concerned.

NewsX: 2:43
Yes, Gilbert Doctorow, could I just get your point of view on Trump flitting on his point of view that Ukraine started the war? What do you think of this?

Gilbert Doctorow, PhD:
Well, let's not be distracted by that, because the news comes out of the White House and varies from day to day. I'm looking at the long-term position which is reflected in the negotiations that took place in Riyadh. And there, my fellow panelist is missing the big picture. He's missing what diplomacy is about and how the solution to the Ukraine conflict-- it's now called the conflict in the latest UN resolution, not a war-- can be found.

3:27
The resolution will come when there is trust between the parties. There can be no trust between the parties if they don't have diplomatic relations. The fact is that the United States and Russia today have almost no diplomatic channels under which they can negotiate an end to the Ukraine conflict and a reestablishment of normal state-to-state relations.

Therefore, the meeting at Riyadh is indicative of the way out, and the way out has no room at this stage for European and Ukrainian participation, because the first stage is to reestablish the diplomatic tools to negotiate anything. That means restoring the US and Russian respective embassies to full functionality. They now are unfunctional, non-functional. There are no ambassadors. They have skeletal staff. The Russian embassy in the United States has no bank accounts that are workable to pay any employees. This is untenable.

4:32
And Mr. Zelensky's view of this and my and Carlos's view from the EU, von der Leyen, are totally irrelevant, as are the comments of my fellow panellist. First, you establish diplomatic relations.

MewsX: 4:46
Keith Vaz, could I get your response, please, to why that you believe that it's so crucial for Ukraine and Europe to have a seat at these talks?

Vaz:
Well, just coming back to what Gilbert just said, Donald Trump doesn't need ambassadors. He does not need diplomats. He's the dealmaker. His foreign policy has always been very personal. It's to do with chemistry. So although, of course, the functioning of embassies [matters], actually, he makes the deals himself. He is dying to go over to Riyadh to shake Putin's hand, as he was with other leaders. So I don't think that this infrastructure really matters to someone like Donald Trump. He is unique in the history of diplomacy. And I've been a foreign office minister covering Ukraine. Of course I know the importance of diplomats.

5:39
But Donald Trump just isn't in this sphere, as far as these issues are concerned. I think at the end of the day he recognizes, because I think his language has toned down, I don't think Zelensky was unduly critical by saying that the information getting to Trump was not a full set of information. Gilbert could be right, because he doesn't have an ambassador. But as he takes most of his news from probably CNN and NewsX World, Trump is never going to have the absolute full picture of what's happening on the ground.

But I think at the end of the day, you've got to have a solution that includes the European powers and Zelensky. History will judge very harshly any deal that is being done at that level that does not include Zelensky. And you have to do this. And it's also a warning to other countries that maybe they should not do business with the United States, because at any single moment the United States could just pull back.

6:45
But of course I take Gilbert's point: you need the infrastructure. But Trump is like no other president we've ever had before. He doesn't need infrastructure. He just needs a telephone. He just needs an iPhone. That's all he does. And suddenly, you know, people get a call. Today, Gilbert is a panelist on this program. Tomorrow, he's probably going to be the ambassador, American ambassador to Russia. That's how Trump works. We are living in a new age.

NewsX:
Gilbert Doctorow, do you think that we can trust, that Russia can trust Donald Trump in these talks in Saudi Arabia? What do you think the end result might be?

Doctorow:
Well just to go back to what my fellow panelists said, we are-- at the end of the day these parties will take part. I agree [thoroughly], but we're not at the end of the day; we're at the beginning of the day. And until certain groundwork is done, it is senseless from the Russian standpoint to have a meeting with Donald Trump.

7:43
It is-- nothing will be resolved by the two presidents if all of the spade work is not done, or to use a more common expression relating to summits, if the Sherpas have not done their job. There is a vast amount of work to do to prepare for that meeting, so that it goes well. The last time that we had this personal conduct of diplomacy without any infrastructure, it didn't go so well. In fact, it set the stage for the drama that has been unfolding since February of 2022. I mean, the meeting between Gorbachev and the emissaries from George W. Bush and the agreement on a handshake that Europe, that NATO would not move one inch to the east. That didn't go too well. That was not properly prepared. There was no documentation. There was nothing that countries that do not trust one another need, to have anything viable in the future.

8:48
It failed. It brought us to a war in Ukraine, because NATO violated every oral promise given. Therefore, the Russians will not agree to a handshake with Donald Trump, and with good reason. So that is a non-starter. The work will be done in advance and the delegation that Trump sent to Riyadh understood that perfectly.

NewsX: 9:11
Gilbert Doctorow and Keith Vaz, thank you very much for joining us on that discussion.